A must-listen media and business interview podcast.

Commical – Episode title: A must-listen media and business interview podcast

Published 22/05/2020 on Chasing Albert website, spotify and apple podcasts.

Marie 00:00
I think Darren Ally is on the wrong side of the camera. You just wait and see how much you’ll learn. Laugh and just listen to everything he has to say. He’s an experienced TV producer now working at 60 Minutes on Channel Nine, but he’s also worked at Today Tonight, he’s worked on The Block, he’s even done RBT.

Twenty years ago, I actually walked out on him just days into my internship with his program at Today Tonight on Channel Seven. Today, he’s a guest on my podcast. Oprah, Steve Jobs, Andrew Denton and all, to me, these guys are masters of communication. The rest of us, well, mainly you, because I’m a pro, fumble our way through. Commical examines this funny little thing called communication that can either tear us down or make us soar. Join me. I’m an amateur comedian and a communication expert. Join me and listen, learn and laugh through the experiences of my very talented guests.

Hello, how are you?

Guest 01:02
I’m good, Marie. How are you?

Marie 01:06
I’m thrilled. It’s been a very, very long time. I can’t even remember, when was the last time we saw each other?

Guest 01:13
Gosh, it might have been when we caught up once for some yum cha, I think, when I was at Today Tonight.

Marie 01:19
That was a long time ago, right? When was it? So let’s start with where we met, so that everybody knows a little bit of the history. So I actually met you when you were teaching me broadcast journalism.

Guest 01:31
That’s right, the art of research in current affairs at the college you were at. And they brought me in to teach people how to talk people into doing things they don’t want to do, which is a skill that I’ve employed over the years. Even a couple of years ago, I was working on RBT, getting drunk people to sign the clearance forms.

Marie 01:52
You worked on RBT?

Guest 01:54
You know, well, I was a freelancer for seven years after I was at Today Tonight for 18 years. Then I went freelance, picking up gigs everywhere from The Block to My Kitchen Rules to RBT. And yeah, but we did meet at the college, didn’t we?

Marie 02:09
We sure did. And then shortly thereafter, I applied for an internship with you at Today Tonight. Do you remember?

Guest 02:17
That’s right, and I believe you walked out. You were like, “Nah, this is not for me, man.” My day was filling envelopes full of these Kickstart Diet recipes and stuff. Oh my God, I know. What the heck?

Marie 02:35
Oh, I will never forget. I thought, this isn’t news. What the hell am I doing?

Guest 02:39
That was your first mistake, to think Today Tonight had anything to do with news, silly girl.

Marie 02:47
I was 19, okay? I was a young girl from Bankstown trying to break into media.

Guest 02:52
I just knew this girl’s gonna go places, because she knows what she wants and she knows what she doesn’t want. And obviously this tabloid journalism isn’t for you. Well, you snob.

Marie 03:06
I know, I so am. From the streets. And you know, if I could go back, I would have stuck it out, because that’s what I always wanted to be, a journalist. It’s what I studied originally. And I remember as a kid walking around with a notebook rewriting the news, and that’s all I ever wanted to do.

Guest 03:21
Well, yeah, Today Tonight was a different beast. I mean, it was back pain cures and diets, and I was a Western Sydney cultural attaché too, because I did work experience there, and they realised that, wow, this is the only guy in the office that lives anywhere past Parramatta.

Marie 03:40
And you did work experience there?

Guest 03:44
Well, that’s how I got my job, yeah. Out of my communications degree, I finished in ’93, spent a year on building sites, and then decided to try and use this degree. So then I did work experience at Today Tonight for a week. And then they asked me back: “Do you want to stick around for another week, work for free?” And they realised that this Islander from Blacktown could be of some use to this show, because, hell, 80% of the stories from Today Tonight were born out of the streets of Western Sydney, you know. And they soon realised that I could find anything in Western Sydney. I could find a street full of single mothers. I could find a whole colony of fat people that would try different diets. I could go into the, you know, this is before Struggle Street became popular, so I was able to get them the best poverty porn you could ever imagine.

Marie 04:39
Poverty porn. Only you would come up with something like that.

Guest 04:43
Look, I looked the part. And I don’t know if it was the best use of my communications degree, but it did get me into the world of news and current affairs, which I’ve now returned to. But that was, yeah, my home for 18 years. I mean, gosh, it was a good time. It was a good time. I loved it. And of course, I got to meet beautiful PR queens like you, Marie.

Marie 05:07
What has changed between then and now in the world of broadcast news?

Guest 05:12
Well, much has changed. Certainly, in this coronavirus era, you can see how technology has come to the fore with the use of Zoom and Skype for interviews, et cetera. But still, the story remains the same. I mean, it’s still the same sort of territory that they’ve trudged through, which is scandal, sex, if it bleeds, it leads, you know, the same. Story meetings will have the same story ideas that come up time and time again: disgraced footballers, nostalgia. You’ve got budgets.

But now I’m at 60 Minutes, and that’s a different beast altogether. It’s a little bit more serious. But it’s all about the story, and on commercial TV it’s all about what’s going to pull in the most eyeballs. I guess what the biggest difference is that there are less eyeballs. And with people now on streaming and watching YouTube, it’s not so much appointment viewing as it used to be. There aren’t just four networks or five networks that people have to choose from every night. Now it’s more so that you need to work harder to try and grab people’s attention. So the promos are working harder, and yeah, it’s even more of a catfight now, because you’re not just up against A Current Affair now, you’re up against the Michael Jordan documentary, and you’re up against the last season of Ozark, and up against the Norris Nuts on YouTube, and kids unwrapping presents and pulling apart different toys and reviewing them. It’s what my kids are watching.

But yeah, it’s a whole new world. And so the revenue’s down, and the money that they used to throw around in current affairs isn’t there. The days of long lunches and Kerry Packer ruling the roost, and the big money they’d throw behind us because the ratings were plus two million, now you’re lucky to crack a million, and if you do, that’s a huge rating.

Marie 07:25
So yes, yeah, it is tough. You’re right, it is tough. But I’ll tell you one thing that for me is consistent from when I started out in the late ’90s, or the early ’90s, whenever, I can’t even remember now, till now, is that TV news, especially the well-established brands like 60 Minutes and the current affairs shows and what have you, still have massive influence. Because I can see, say for example, my client ends up on one of those shows on the front foot, for the right reasons, big things happen in their business. Their business does shift. And same goes for if they’re on for the wrong reasons. Their business does suffer. So the influence, I find, of those kinds of news programs is still there, despite the numbers or the ratings not being as high.

Guest 08:14
Oh yeah, no, most definitely. I mean, it still reaches a wide audience. But the thing is with these shows is that you might get 600,000 or 700,000 watching when it goes live, but the numbers on YouTube for 60 Minutes are huge. Some of the stories on coronavirus will have, by now, 2.2 million views when they’ve gone into the Wuhan markets, or gone into, you know... and that’s where you get the flow-on, from YouTube repeated viewing. So the digital age has come through, and now people are watching on YouTube. They might not have caught it at that time when you’re going to air, but they’re watching it on YouTube, and that’s huge. We have a whole digital arm at 60 Minutes that basically is working towards the YouTube channel.

So that’s an interesting thing, and that’s where that influence is still felt. And you’ll see the flow-on effect from that, because word of mouth will get out. The next morning people will say, “Did you see that story when they went into the markets in China?” and people will catch up with it on YouTube, and of course on catch-up, sort of online, Nine, and so forth. So yeah, there’s still an audience out there for it, but the heady days in the ’80s and early ’90s of huge audiences have diminished, so you have to work harder.

But Today Tonight’s gone now, and so A Current Affair is by itself now, so they don’t have that competition for stories that they used to have. And 60 Minutes now doesn’t have that Sunday night competitor to compete for that same story. But the days of pulling out the chequebook and signing up some talent for 150 grand is over, most definitely. And the days where, you know, I’ve heard stories where 60 Minutes producers would just put a pointer on a map and say, “Let’s go there,” and then find a story in the middle of Zimbabwe because someone has an interest in the Zimbabwe jazz quartet and they want to go see them live. That’s when money was around and there was so much advertising revenue. But yeah.

Marie 10:33
So what you’re telling me is you’re not going to pay me some big bucks to get on and do a story about my former life as a games reviewer on Channel 10?

Guest 10:41
Well, look, there might be yum cha lunch in it for you, Marie. And as a games reviewer, I reckon that definitely warrants some attention, as in, wow, where are they now? What was that show you were on, Marie? What was that show you were on?

Marie 10:59
That was Cheese TV.

[Archival audio clip from Cheese TV plays]

Guest 11:28
Yeah, I do. Wow, man.

Marie 11:31
Well, I know you need to tell that story, Darren. It needs to be out there.

Guest 11:35
It does. It does.

Marie 11:38
Do you reckon that relationships are still important in media, like say, for example, between a potential source or a key PR rep or any kind of talent? Do relationships still matter when it comes to putting a story together and coming out of it looking, you know...?

Guest 11:55
Oh yeah, no, most definitely. For instance, just recently I did a story on the coronavirus for 60 Minutes, and it was a relationship I have with a PR person from OzHarvest who was able to find me a family relying on charity. And because we had that relationship, she was able to find me someone quite quickly, whereas someone from Foodbank or another charity might not have been so helpful in terms of coming forward and reaching out to one of the charities they have out there. I mean, she just knew exactly where to go, and within a few days she was able to find me talent. And that’s what booking talent and finding talent is a key part of what I’m doing.

And the success at which I do my job is basically measured by whether, in the next couple of days after I get set that task on the Zoom call or the meeting we have, whether I’ve got that talent. And relationships in the PR circles can mean so much in terms of cutting out some of the white noise and really having that relationship with that person who’ll go a bit above and beyond, and also know that there’s a real benefit from it. For instance, with Foodbank, I didn’t know anyone from Foodbank, so I was kind of on the back foot, and they were so busy at this time that they weren’t able to help. But because I knew this person from OzHarvest, it was a lot easier. But to answer your question here, most definitely, relationships matter.

Marie 13:30
And what happens if somebody promises you a Ferrari and delivers a Commodore? Well, that’s not to say Commodores are bad. That’s an expectation that doesn’t...

Guest 13:42
They don’t make Commodores anymore. But no, look, it doesn’t often happen that, you know, you try and have that relationship where you can suss out whether there’s going to be a Commodore waiting for you at the end of the line. And your instincts will tell you that, hey, this isn’t the avenue where I’m going to strike gold at the end of this. So your instincts will either, by the tone of their voice or by the length at which it takes for them to get back to you for the phone call, if your persistent emails don’t get answered, then there might be shortcomings in what you’re promised and what you’re delivered, in fact. So, but yeah, you can smell the rats. You can smell it. Twenty-odd years plus in the industry, you can definitely smell when the soufflé is going to rise or when it’s going to fall.

Marie 14:35
And what’s the quickest way to piss off a producer?

Guest 14:38
The quickest way to piss off a producer is when you promise something like, say, an exclusive. In the media it’s all about getting that exclusive, or making sure that even someone else in your network or another show doesn’t do it. You want to be the first to break it, or the first one to be able to promote it and say, “They speak to us for the first time ever,” and those words, exclusive, are what it’s all about. And when you lose that, then it can be a real blow, and can really cheapen the worth that your story had.

Marie 15:22
Even if it’s a different angle, is there such a thing as an exclusive angle?

Guest 15:27
Well, I guess at that time, when that person is hot property, for instance, say this AFL coach has got himself into a bit of trouble for stalking. If you were able to line up an exclusive with him, but then someone else is talking to him about, you know, another angle, it’s the fact that that person there and then is going to tell you their story. So it’s the fact that you’re the first one to talk to that person, and that’s the value of it for the network, for the show that you work for.

But within your own network, sometimes you find yourself competing against the news, because everyone is looking after their own backyard. And even when I was at Today Tonight, you’d often be battling over someone against the news, which was on at six and you’re on at 6:30. So news will often get upset with you because you wouldn’t share that talent, because, well, you want to be exclusive. Tonight, they speak for the first time ever. The skeletons are out. The closet is open. Nothing is safe. You know, it’s all about that exclusivity, and that’s the currency that we’re dealing with. So yeah, in the end, it’s all about the promo.

Marie 16:43
And yeah, how do we market it? How do we promote it?

Guest 16:46
How do we promote it? And if you can’t promote it as the first time ever, then, wow, it’s not going to sound as good as if you’re saying, “He speaks to us for the second time on the news.” You know, it’s like, mate.

Marie 17:02
Does Channel Nine know that you have this ability to narrate like this? They could save a lot of money on their voice-over people.

Guest 17:09
Well, I’ve often offered that, you know. And when I was working on reality shows, I’d often be the voice before Scotty Cam. So I do a great Scotty Cam: “Today on The Block, pull up your socks and get ready to work. It’s kitchen week this week.” So yeah, I have mastered a lot of voices. But you know, Marie, I’m a man of many talents. You were speaking to Dennis Carnahan last week, and you know, I replaced Dennis in the Confetti Disco band, so yeah.

Marie 17:44
Well, then I’ve really got to come. Once everything’s back to normal, I want to come and see you play with your band or sing with your band if you come and see my stand-up comedy gig. Is it a deal?

Guest 17:56
It’s a deal, it’s a deal. You know, Marie, I’ve still got one of these surfboards that you sent out when you were a PR queen.

Guest 18:12
And our relationship started from very early on. And when you have that relationship and you get a call from that person, you’ll drop everything to get back to them, or you’ll always have an ear for them, and you’ll always move heaven and earth to try and maybe, not on your show, but, hey, look, Marie, I think my friend at the Today show might be able to help out with this story. It’s not enough for 60 Minutes or Today Tonight, but it’s definitely something for the Today show where they can do a live cross on your fun run around the world, or your New King James tradie outfits, you know, for men. And that relationship is gold. And for me, it’s always been one of the great things about the job, to nurture those relationships.

Marie 18:55
And I agree.

Guest 18:58
And when I need talent, and when I need business leaders to talk about how they’re faring in the economy and stuff, often I’ll turn to my mates in PR who work with the boss of Boost Juice or have as clients people who are business leaders, or know of organisations like OzHarvest, for instance. So, you know, they help out.

Marie 19:24
It’s a two-way street. You know, the challenge sometimes for people that work in PR, that have good contacts in the media, is the pressure to use those contacts when they know that the story they have is just not relevant for that contact, you know. And that’s always been a challenge. How long have I known you? Twenty years? Far out. I can think of maybe three stories in 20 years that we worked on together.

Guest 19:54
Well, that’s good.

Marie 19:56
No, but it is good. But I’ve worked on a lot of clients in that time. But the important thing here is that just because the relationship is there, it doesn’t mean you can cut corners on the story. You know, you still have to be able to deliver the goods.

Guest 20:06
And always be honest and say, “I don’t know if I can do this one, but hey, I know someone at Triple M,” or “I know someone at another show.” And, you know, the Today show’s often somewhere where they’ve got three hours to fill, or even The Morning Show and all the people on after that, after Sunrise. And if it’s not the show that I’m working on, then it’s definitely another show.

And yeah, because you have relationships with those people, then you can pass it on and let them know that, hey, my friend Marie is going to call you up about this person who came back from Africa, you know, from the war in Iraq, and they’re doing this thing, and, you know, she can help out. And it’s also about being honest and saying, “100%, exactly.” The last thing you want is for someone to string you along and then at the last minute say no. And then all this time you’ve had to try and shop that around has been lost, you know.

Marie 21:04
Man, I used to have this guy who worked for me many, many years ago, right? And I would say to him, “How’s this story that you’re pitching? Who have you spoken to?” And he’d say to me, “I’m so close with Geronimo, they’re really interested.” And I was really busy. I never gave it a second thought. It was the only media lead he had. And then about two weeks later, I was like, “Who the fuck is Geronimo? I’ve never heard of them. Is it a blog?” Is it a... two weeks working on this thing that I had never heard of. Anyway, needless to say, it didn’t last very long after that. I was just too busy to connect the dots. And it was a while later where I looked at everybody else and I said, “Why didn’t anybody say, ‘Hey, Marie, are you actually listening to what this guy is telling you?’” What the hell was he doing for two weeks, I don’t know, with Geronimo. Have you ever heard of Geronimo? I’ve never heard of Geronimo till this day.

Guest 21:59
It’s good. Guy sounds like a salesman, mate. He was convincing. I’ll tell you that. He was very convincing.

Marie 22:06
Hey, what makes good talent? To find good talent, for people listening.

Guest 22:09
Well, good talent, for instance, the family I found for this coronavirus story at 60 Minutes that just went to air, were fantastic because they were relatable. They were able to talk on camera even though they were nervous. They need to be able to string thoughts together, obviously, and present well on camera. I mean, they need to be someone who’s able to get to the heart of the story and be able to speak their truth, which is what the family that I found for this story, that are relying on charity, for instance, to get through coronavirus, were able to do.

They’d lived a very comfortable life until recently, and then overnight had lost all their work. They were fantastic, because the mum was just so... you just felt for her. The husband, who was having problems mentally in terms of being unemployed for the first time in 30 years, wasn’t so articulate, but the pain in his face said it all. So when I spoke to them over Skype, I could just see that the wife was great talent. She could not stop talking and was just able to articulate the pain she was going through. But the husband, in his own monosyllabic way, was great talent because his face told a thousand stories as well.

Marie 23:26
I realised that too when I watched it, yeah.

Guest 23:29
With this talent, it was a perfect marriage of the dance teacher, Trish, who was just bubbly and effervescent, positive and full of pep, and her husband, the hardest, toughest-as-teak boilermaker, whose face told a story. And even in his very stoic nature, he spoke in very measured terms, but he was just as good because his face spoke of the pain they were going through without even having to say a thing. And that got a lot of people as well.

So that was great talent. Great talent can be different things, but ultimately this is TV, so they need to be able to talk, not freeze up on camera, which would be, I guess, a lot more of a problem if it’s live TV. But, you know, be able to speak, not necessarily in sound bites, but speak and articulate, again, their truth, and be able to give you a good summarisation of what they’re going through from the heart as well as the head, and in ways that people at home can really relate to.

But also, you know, that’s when you’re talking human stories and stuff. Other stories that we would work with, which is business or talking about a new product, sometimes you’d get a talent that would just speak... say, for instance, if they’re talking about the Mediterranean diet pill, which was a story I had at Today Tonight, and the talent who was the head of the company that was selling this product, we were interested in it because this pill encapsulated all the things that the Mediterranean diet has that promise longevity of life and weight loss. But he spoke completely in scientific terms, and was so what you’d call a boffin. Like, he spoke in a boffin-esque way that... you’ve got to speak to Mr and Mrs Penrith. Let’s face it, you need to reach Mr and Mrs Penrith and speak in terms that will capture their attention while they’re eating their steak and three veg, washing it down with their Bailey’s. And you need them to speak, you know, succinctly in that time allotted to be able to sell their product, and they need to be a bit of a salesman in that type of story. So different talent can mean different sorts of things across the different spectrums of stories you’ll cover. So yeah, my job is to basically make sure that, you know, you’ve only got a couple of hits at this, so you need to speak to them and make sure that they’re able to speak well, to talk in a way that will capture Mr and Mrs Penrith’s attention, and to understand the story and be able to drive that narrative forward.

Marie 26:12
Yeah. How many chances do you give them to get it right?

Guest 26:16
As long as it takes, Marie, as long as it takes. If it’s not a live interview, I mean, interviews that I’ve seen in reality shows, for instance, can take up to three to four hours at the end of a day on The Block. On My Kitchen Rules, they’re infamous for running six-hour interviews for one episode. I’m not joking. And this is, you know, one of the things that reality TV will do. They’ll sit them down and every minute point about what they did in that day will be covered. So: “You dropped that ladle into the minestrone and it went plonk. What was that plonk like when it hit your ears?” So when you cut that zucchini and the knife was blunt, how did it feel when you realised that it was going to take a long time to cut that zucchini?

And it’s just to cover those points which might be of interest for you in that reality show you’re covering, and it also might be a point for you to be able to create a franken-grab, which is what a lot of reality shows do, which is cutting little bits of this and that to make another sound bite. So they’ve got them saying all different sorts of things to kind of articulate a sentence. But yeah, look, if you’ve got them sitting there, you need to give them as much time as possible to get it. There’s no step limit at all, because essentially it’s all about getting it there and then. Otherwise, you go back to the edit suite with your editor, and he’s like, “Well, where’s the grabs that we need? Where is it?” “Well, I didn’t get it.” “Where is them crying?” Hopefully you’ll say, “Well, spool through to three hours and 46 minutes in, and you’ll see a tear.”

Marie 28:04
Because I don’t want to go back and reshoot. That’s it. This is the time you’ve given it, and a story’s got to go to air.

Guest 28:10
That’s right, that’s right, that’s right. So it’s different in a live cross, where the talent, you know, if you need to... well, there’s no chances. You need to make sure that they deliver it there and then. You know, like the Kiwi guy that I saw interviewed on the Today show with Karl. Karl was interviewing a Kiwi guy that rescued some sort of shopkeeper, and he was just gold because he was able to speak in his Kiwi accent, charm the pants off Karl. He was a big teddy bear, and it was just this combination of sweet and hard. And again, it’s amazing what can make a good interview. It’s capturing lightning in a bottle if it’s live. And if it can happen, it can happen. Sometimes it doesn’t happen, and that can be quite unfortunate.

But yeah, if you’re in a current affairs situation, you’re there till you get it. You’re there to get it. Yeah, and over 20 years, it’s these connections that make your job a lot easier, make story gathering a lot easier, and finding talent a lot easier. And I’m thankful that over the last 20 years, you’re one of the great connections that I’ve made that makes my job so much easier and such a joy.

Marie 29:21
Such a joy, mate, such a joy. I really miss seeing you, and I’m so thankful that you gave up your evening for me to chat. I know you’ve been working your butt off, and I’ve taken you away from your family. So thank you so much. I don’t know what you’re watching.

Guest 29:37
Seriously, I’ve been with my family for the last 24 hours, so thank you. Thank you, because my family at the moment are like the Waltons on meth. They are like the Kardashians on freaking... crazy, crazy times.

Marie 29:52
I hear you, mate. I hear you.

Guest 29:56
I know you do, and I can see it. I can see you.

Marie 30:00
The deranged look in my eye, the crazy hair, the fact that I’m sitting on a laundry basket to interview you.

Guest 30:09
Yeah, it’s awesome. It’s awesome. I see you’ve got your colours separated with the whites. It’s good.

Marie 30:16
Thanks, mate. Thanks. Yeah, little wins. You’ve got to celebrate the small wins, right?

Guest 30:22
You’re killing it, man. You are winning.

Marie 30:26
You’re winning. Thanks, my friend. Thank you so much again, Darren, and we’ll talk really soon. Have a really great night.

Guest 30:33
I will. Thank you. See you next time. Bye-bye.

Marie 30:41
And that’s Commical for this week. If you’d like to join the show, suggest a topic, or ask me a question, hit me up on Instagram, or email me at comicalpodcast@gmail.com. Thanks so much for listening. See ya.