Improving communication skills and building brand identity.

Commical – Episode title: Improving communication skills and building brand identity.

Published 09/06/2025 on Chasing Albert website, spotify and apple podcasts.

Marie 00:00

Brand, reputation and culture can be impacted by bad processes just as much as they can by a good marketing campaign. They are three topics that are linked and critical to business, be it large or small. Karl Treacher is the CEO at The Brand Institute and an Adjunct Associate Professor at Griffith Business School. His research into the relationship between brand, reputation and culture has led to 60 published articles, along with speaking engagements at TEDx and the Committee for Economic Development in Australia, also known as CEDA. The acronyms don’t stop there. Karl has worked with NAB, MYOB, PwC and the ACCC, and many other leading Australian organisations. But today, he’s my guest on Commical.

Oprah, Steve Jobs, Andrew Denton and, to me, these guys are masters of communication. The rest of us, well mainly you, because I’m a pro, fumble our way through. Commical examines this funny little thing called communication that can either tear us down or make us soar. Join me. I’m an amateur comedian and a communication expert. Join me and listen, learn and laugh through the experiences of my very talented guests.

Welcome, Karl. Thank you for joining me.

Guest 01:16

My pleasure. Great to be here.

Marie 01:18

Do I call you Professor? Karl? How do you like to be referred to?

Guest 01:23

Well, here’s the thing. Of course, I like to be referred to as Professor Karl Treacher. The only issue with that is, technically, to be called professor, you should actually be actively teaching at a university at the time. I am involved with the Griffith MBA and Griffith Business School, but to be calling someone a professor, they really need to have their sleeves rolled up and be doing something day to day that involves education. I’m working in the corporate sector, and I’m an Executive in Residence. So given that, and the fact that you and I have known each other for 18 years, and I do want to talk a lot about that, I think let’s just call me Karl.

Marie 01:57

All right, Karl, I will. And do you know it’s a year to the day since we’ve seen each other? Because it’s a year to the day that I did that comedy event at the Opera House.

Guest 02:05

That was great. That was hilarious.

Marie 02:11

I wish I got that reaction when I changed my mind.

Oh, why? So I’m 40, and I’m a mother of two beautiful young kids, and I’m at that stage in my life where I’ve really started to study my body, because no one else does. And I’ve been thinking, whatever happened to the good old days when being a MILF meant wearing nice clothes, just fixing your hair, shaving your toes? Standards have changed, and it bothers me a little bit. I’ve got some friends of mine who look fantastic, and that’s because they’ve got great DNA. And I’ve got other friends of mine who look amazing because they’ve got DNA: American Express. Swipe the fat away. But I’ve taken a leaf out of Marie Kondo personally. I fold my gut into my jeans.

Guest 03:22

That was one of my favourite evenings of 2019.

Marie 03:28

Oh, I thank you for saying so. Karl, I was the best out of everybody.

Guest 03:32

You were easily the best. I don’t remember anyone else.

Marie 03:36

Now, speaking of the best, you are the man when it comes to brand, reputation and culture, and so I’m thrilled that we get the chance to talk today. I wanted to start by asking you to define the difference between brand, reputation and culture.

Guest 03:51

No problem. Look, before we start there, let’s actually start at the start. So, 18 years ago, I met you. You were a young 20-something working in an elite group of people in a corporate consulting firm in the city, and that was amazing. I’ve just wanted to say before we start, watching your career over the last 18 years has been a highlight of my life as well. You just shot the lights out. You were the most rambunctious, disruptive, in some instances terrifying person I’d met at the time, and so look at you now.

All right, so back to your question. The difference between brand, culture and reputation, let’s keep this as light as possible. In terms of a definition, brand is essentially what you’re recognised for, the collection of thoughts and feelings people have about you. And reputation is your sense of trust and credibility, and they are obviously inextricably linked. Culture, on the other hand, is the driving force behind that. So how do you ensure consistency of that particular appeal or brand image? Okay?

Marie 04:56

And can one be strong if the other is weak? For example, you said brand and reputation are linked. Can you have a great brand but a poor reputation?

Guest 05:05

Yeah, and there are some really, really good examples of that. So Nike over the years, and look, a lot of technology firms as well, have had questionable reputations because of their work ethic and their work conditions, particularly in Southeast Asia. So in terms of credibility and the perceptions of the way that their employee culture exists, there are big questions over that. However, from a brand perspective, they’re smashing it. Samsung’s one of those. Apple have had their issues. Nike’s had their issues. I think we all remember sweatshops and Nike, but at the same time, their brand was very dominant, and remains dominant.

And then from a personal perspective, you think about Mike Tyson and even Arnold Schwarzenegger to some extent. Personally, their reputations have had peaks and troughs, but their brands are very strong.

Marie 05:51

So how does that work? How do you build a strong brand while you’re obviously making some mistakes or your reputation isn’t as good as it should be?

Guest 06:00

Well, it’s a psychological question, and the answer is deeply rooted in the way people make decisions. So for some people, they’ll actually care. Their moral code and their ethics will be so strong that the reputation will dominate their decision-making and their behaviour. For others that are operating and making choices for other reasons, they’ll just choose a brand because they like it or because, yeah, they’re aware of the reputation issues, but it doesn’t actually interfere with whether they decide that brand is going to perform the role they want it to, or represent them in their life.

Marie 06:32

Wow. So is one not necessarily more important than the other?

Guest 06:37

It depends on the industry and the business. So in some industries, reputation is incredibly important. The banking industry, for instance, incredibly important. We trust them with our money. Nothing’s probably more important than that right now. We need to know governance, leadership, the way that they’re managing our money, the way that they’re operating is actually truly customer-centric, and that comes from the culture. And every reputation scandal starts in cultural dysfunction.

Marie 07:07

Wow. Okay, so can you give me an example of that, a recent one? Actually, before you answer that, yes, I listened to your interview on the ABC about Dreamworld, and you were mentioning that their brand is about fun and entertainment, but that their reputation has to be all about safety, because how can you have fun if you don’t feel safe? So in a case like that, right before that tragic incident happened a few years back where a few people died while they were on one of their rides, their reputation wouldn’t have really been front of mind because you just made that assumption that they’re safe, etc. So brand would have been more important at that time.

Guest 07:48

Yep, for sure. You’re dead set right. Brand for them, being in the leisure, entertainment, tourism game, was dominant. And so we had an assumption, much like we do with airlines, much like we do with the police force right now. And I think in America it’s really pertinent to look at that, where we just assume that every police officer is a good apple. We assume that they’ve been screened, that they’ve got the right ethics and the right values in place to make the right decisions. We don’t think for a second that there’s ever going to be a deviation from that.

So with Dreamworld, for them to demonstrate such gross misconduct to the extent that they didn’t maintain their rides, they didn’t maintain the level of personnel they needed to support what is something that is terrifying, these rides are designed to scare the hell out of you, not to kill you. It’s the fear of death that actually drives people to these amusement parks, not actually dying. So it’s an absolute assumption that that’s taken care of.

Marie 08:48

And so reputation, whilst building a reputation and managing one falls in the comms space, ultimately, yes, it’s based in how you behave, how you operate as a company.

Guest 09:00

Yes, entirely. And back to your point around reputation and culture, an example. You said, what does that look like? Well, most people know we came out of a quite damning Royal Commission into the banking sector. How are banks behaving? We lost several CEOs from that. Senior leaders lost their jobs because of the culture that they hadn’t instilled through the organisation to perform well.

So you’ve got to remember, this all rolls up together. Once we talk about brand, culture and reputation separately, let’s take it out of the corporate-speak and into the customer landscape. So you go, righto, as a customer, what do I care about? I care that you’re going to give me something of value, and you’re going to deliver on that. That’s really going to be very attractive, it’s going to be distinct, it’s going to be appealing for me, and you’re going to deliver on it consistently so I can trust you, right? That’s all I really want.

But then you jump the fence into the corporate landscape, or into the business world, and everything gets a bit messy. It gets a bit siloed. We forget the fact that actually we’re serving a customer here who has an expectation that we’ve created, whether it be through advertising, or what we’ve said about it, or their prior experience. We’ve now got an obligation to actually meet that, and that comes from the culture that we set in the business, which is essentially: what are the behaviours, what are our values, what are we incentivised to do? And that has to be focused on the customer, particularly now in the pandemic.

Marie 10:23

That means we’re talking about a lot of departments working together here, right? Does that happen? Oh yeah, yeah. Does it happen?

Guest 10:28

Well, thinking about two people? Well, no. I mean, I’m never busier than when there’s crisis, particularly in large iconic organisations. We’ve been doing this for 20 years. We just specialise in evolving brands. And every brand is trying to evolve now in one way or another, and culture’s at the heart of that. But yet, to your point, do they get along? Hell no, they don’t get along.

I mean, you and I getting on now for this 20 minutes, 35 minutes might be all over. There are certain people that you and I know and have worked with in the past that we don’t get along with. And unfortunately, in big companies, you have to. You’ve got to come to an agreement. And you can do that if you keep the customer at the heart of your conversation, and you take the personal elements out of it.

Marie 11:17

You just mentioned then that you work with the big iconic brands and help them to evolve. Do you work at all, or have you had an interest in working with brands that show promise and that are starting up, and helping them establish themselves from the get-go to be a strong brand with a good reputation and a good culture?

Guest 11:37

Do I have an interest? Yes, I have an interest. I haven’t had enormous experience there. I’ve spent most of my time with big organisations, mostly because it’s more complex. If we’re working with 30,000 people, 1,000 people, like the smallest companies we’ve worked with have been MYOB and REA Group, which have been around 1,000 people each. And so that’s still complex, because we’re talking about 1,000 people coming together for a joint purpose. But I get really fascinated by: how do you pull 33,000 people together to make sure they’re all reading the same lines and delivering the same thing to customers effectively?

Marie 12:16

That’s an insane challenge. And so to that point, how do employee behaviours contribute to the building of a brand?

Guest 12:23

They’re really critical. I think in the 80s and 90s we started talking about vision and mission. Let’s stand up the organising assets. Let’s stand up what we’re actually trying to do and how we’re going to do it, which was great. It’s a good start. But they’re just words on the wall. It’s like the team photo of the soccer team before the whistle blows. It doesn’t matter. What matters is the whistle blows, you run onto the field, you’ve snotted someone, now someone else has got an elbow to the jaw. How do you recover from that? Or you’re down three-zip and there’s five minutes to go. What are you going to do? And that’s where culture comes to the fore.

So for me, that’s incredibly invigorating, because it’s not warfare, but it is certainly a heightened sense of existence that we’re actually talking about the flow of the organisation, which means multiple personalities, multiple incentives, siloed businesses trying to do things. And back to your point around the customer, we started a company called Brand Behaviour 18 years ago, which now is a product within The Brand Institute. And I thought, this is easy, we’ll do this, this is basic. We just get the promise from the company, like a bank, or whoever it might be, Nike, just do this, or “Impossible is Nothing.” There’s your promise. Let’s make the employees deliver that.

Well, boy, that has been 18 years and it’s still going. I thought, let’s give you a guidebook and a video and away you go. But people need more than that.

Marie 13:47

No. What is it? What do we need?

Guest 13:50

You need a combination of things. You need leadership, that’s the first thing and the most important. And everyone talks about strong leadership, and you’ve got to make sure we’re actually talking about the real thing. You’ve got to get the right person. Forget about their behaviours and what they’re saying and doing. Get the right person. If it’s the wrong person, the culture will never be effective. That’s the key message.

The way executive search firms and recruitment firms are recruiting people at the moment is grossly inadequate. We’re seeing that because leadership isn’t at the level that it should be. People have to have a great sense of empathy, great emotional intelligence, which was one of your podcasts recently. I found that fascinating. And that’s a prerequisite before we start talking about capability and psychometric testing. Firstly, are you a psychopath? Are you a sociopath? Do you actually care about other people? Well, let’s start there. Let’s start with that. And when we get past that, we can then get into, okay, how are you going to lead this business?

So that’s the first thing. The second is effective communication through the business. Are you telling people what you expect? Thirdly, are you incentivising that? Are you incentivising that behaviour? And fourthly, are you supporting it and enabling it? And that’s it. If you get those things right, guess what? Your culture is going to be brilliant, and we’ve seen that. We’ve seen terrific culture in play, and also shocking culture play out.

Marie 15:07

The list that you just shared sounded really positive, ie, how do you encourage, how do you inspire, or how do you reward? Does that mean that there shouldn’t be any ramifications for bad behaviour? What happens if somebody doesn’t follow or embrace the values or the expectations that you set for them?

Guest 15:26

So there’s a really, I think a lot of companies are doing it well, are following a particular formula, and they’ve come from various authors. Carolyn Taylor’s one. She wrote a book called Walking the Talk. There’s another great book called Culture Fix at the moment around the place. Some of the things that we’ve borrowed from, or been inspired by from that sort of thinking, is behaviours, symbols and systems.

You’ve got your behaviours. You say, okay, what do we expect from people? The behaviours aren’t just what you say and how you greet people and the way you show up. It’s what you actually do. So it’s where the company spends time and money. So the big behaviours and symbols piece is critical. The systems part is: are there ramifications for misconduct? And we’ve seen misconduct playing out in aged care, misconduct playing out in the banking sector. Often it’s not that there aren’t penalties. It’s that there isn’t a level of assessment and identification in place to identify when someone’s actually deviated from the path.

Marie 16:26

If somebody’s deviating from that path, but they’re bloody good at their job, and I’ve seen it happen, I might have even been the person in that position, self-reflection, right?

Guest 16:39

I wasn’t going to say anything, but there it is.

Marie 16:46

Honestly, what does a business owner do, or a leader do, in those situations?

Guest 16:51

Well, it’s tough, and it depends on where the business is at the time. If that person’s performing well and results are important to the organisation as a cultural priority, it’s about seeing if it’s possible to coach that person toward the other elements that are a cultural priority. So results might be important, and they’re performing well, but they might be falling over when it comes to collaboration and care and customer centricity. And they might be results at all costs.

Donald Trump right now, for him, his result is winning the election, so he is doing everything that he can. That’s a great example of results at all costs, and a complete dismissal of other things that actually matter. And I think that we all hope that will grossly backfire and he becomes the laughing stock of the world that he already is, but it’s hard to know.

Back to your point, what do you do? You try and coach it out. But look, some people, they’re not coachable. Some people have a particular operating rhythm, way of moving through their business and their life, and they’re very happy not taking on the collective values and behaviours.

Marie 17:52

Yeah, that’s really interesting, actually. Again, the way you frame things is so positive, even the way that you look at it and you say, well, you coach them through it. It wasn’t an answer about, well, then they’re not right, you get rid of them, you give them a warning, you speak to HR. It was about, you work with them. It’s almost like accepting, okay, well this person is great and is valued, so how can we help them do better? It’s an interesting way to frame it mentally.

Guest 18:19

Yeah, and the easy way is to shoot them. The easy way is to be black and white. You’re no good, you’ve got to go. Well, look, sometimes that is true, but you’ve got to make sure, from an IR perspective and industrial relations perspective and also other things, that you’ve got all your ducks in a row if that’s the case. And you, being married to a lawyer, I’m sure you’d be listening to that every night. But I’d love to see your contract too, actually. Whether he is or isn’t my lawyer as well, that’s another matter.

But we’re talking about people, and people are, in many instances, coachable and can change and can embrace new ways if it’s positioned well for them. And that’s got to be the way we approach it. That said, if there’s a cultural terrorist in the organisation, someone that has a significant dysfunction to their personality that is irreparable and uncoachable, yes, they need to go, and they need to go very quickly. Otherwise, the organisation is seen to be endorsing that behaviour, and that’s huge. And we see that all the time.

Marie 19:24

So from an influencing or motivating staff to embrace the values, the systems and the processes that you put forward, how can a company do that? What inspires staff or what works for them?

Guest 19:39

That’s a great one because the intuitive answer is wrong. The intuitive answer is: great leadership, make some really compelling, inspiring statements, paint a vision, paint the future for them, put the beacon on the hill, as we love to say, and then make it easy for them to get there.

People care about themselves. People are inherently excessively selfish, self-obsessed, and that is a reality. It’s not a criticism of humanity or the human condition. That’s where we’re at right now. So if you aren’t positioning something that’s of benefit to the employee, they are not going to do it.

We’ve had examples before. We’ve had great leaders, terrific leaders, great leadership structure, values, all the organising assets are in place, excellent communication, great signs that this is a way that we’re moving. Without the compelling truth or the compelling element for employees to really engage in it, you’ve got to look at what matters to employees.

It used to be people would join a company and leave their manager, and it’s an old saying that their manager was the most important thing. Well, it is that, but it’s also progress these days, particularly with tech being as dominant as it is. When you look at human motivation, people get a kick out of progressing, get a kick out of getting better, learning, doing things. And so every company right now is on the hunt to have a better learning culture, because one, it’s motivating, and two, it actually is a prerequisite to having an innovative business. You have to be doing things to be learning and acquiring new skills always. It doesn’t mean having an academy or having a professor come and talk, please, if you’d like, I’m available. It means always learning, being always switched on to help people find new and better ways of doing things in the name of customer centricity.

Marie 21:33

What about purpose? Does purpose matter?

Guest 21:36

Purpose matters if it’s done well, if it’s not motherhood, if it’s not seen to be just a fun statement that someone put together that reads as a strapline. If it’s actually hard-hitting and you believe in the purpose, it really matters. It can be very motivating.

Marie 21:49

Now of course all of these things work, provided that the basics are met. It’s kind of like the Dreamworld example, right? So the brand’s about fun, but we expect them to at least, at a minimum, be safe and care for our safety. Would it be the same for people, which is, yes, we want to learn and we want to progress, but the base is that I’m paid well and I’m treated well?

Guest 22:09

Yeah, that’s for sure. And even more so now. Security has climbed the ladder in terms of what people care about. Is my job safe? Am I being under good conditions? Am I being looked after? We came out of a point where people talked about psychological safety for a long time in the last decade. Am I psychologically safe at work? Unfortunately, that’s taken a bit of a back seat to: do I have a job? Instead of: do I live in a political environment where I feel like I’m being psychologically tortured, which is unfortunately quite common now? People are really interested in what’s the degree of security and safety and trajectory that I have. People are very grateful just to have their jobs and sort of seeing a redirection of motivation towards doing a great job because you’ve got one.

Marie 22:54

I know. It’s kind of sad in many ways right now that people are feeling that way.

Guest 22:58

Yeah, well, it’s sad, but I also secretly like part of it. I like that the sort of elitist “I can do anything” indulgence that has been rife across corporate Australia and certainly corporate America, it’s sort of a bit of a leveller now. I’m hoping things like Instagram fall on their face.

Marie 23:19

You’re not a fan of influencers?

Guest 23:23

Well, it’s not a fan of, “Do I look flash right now? Let me just get my abs out, and here’s a terrific shot for my followers,” and getting a self-esteem kick out of having a number of followers that are looking at you. I think, given we have one life and it’s relatively short, there’s probably better ways of spending your time.

Marie 23:40

Amen to that. Karl, this stuff doesn’t sound easy. Building a brand, building a good reputation, and building a culture and nurturing it. How much time does it take to do these things?

Guest 23:53

There are parts that are easy. So brand identity is easy. It’s fun, it’s sexy, it’s really engaging. It’s about visual stimulation. It’s the eye candy. How can I represent myself? This is unreal. I came out of that background, as you know, supporting brands like Futurespace a long time ago, where you get paid stupid amounts of money to put together a logo, and this has this, and you tell a story, and the story will be very emotive, hopefully, and then you get paid.

But the reality is, it doesn’t really do anything unless you’re doing the things in the background. And your point around how long does that take, that takes an eternity. Every company, regardless of its size, if you’re talking about shifting, shaping and evolving its culture, that’s a period of years.

More often than not, there are a couple of things that can expedite that. If they are moving location, so if they’re relocating their offices, you’ve got an opportunity, a bit of a free kick. You’ve got an opportunity to set that office up in line with their aspirational culture. We did a paper on this, which is workplace identity. How do we get the workplace to yell and shout, “Here’s what we’re about now”? You immerse them in that, and humans, as we know, respond to being immersed in environments. So that expedites it. Other than that, the other thing that will expedite it is new leadership turnover.

Marie 25:11

More and fire, yep. And so this is something that people should be working on ongoing. If I’m a small business and I don’t have somebody that’s head of culture, head of people and culture, or internal comms, or I might just have a marketing executive working for me, just getting me in the local paper, am I still able to build a brand and manage a reputation and establish a culture?

Guest 25:33

You have to. And I’ve got two clients at the moment that I’m coaching or advising, just for the love of it. One’s a PR firm, not in competition to anything you may do, and the other is a close friend of mine who runs a really successful vet practice. He’s part of that new Bondi Vet program. Both of them have to be known, so there’s the role of brand. They have to be trusted, they have to have all their ducks in a row, so there’s reputation for you, and they have to deliver, so there’s culture. So in every instance, they need all three assets.

And it’s not about building a library of intelligence and resources around those. It’s just about, really simply, how do I navigate each of those? For those clients or friends, I should say, we just use three pages. Here’s your brand on a page. There’s a particular device that we use. Just make sure they stay central, they don’t deviate, because there’s always an opportunity to go sideways. Here’s your reputation. Here are the things that your customers care about and the public care about, that you’ve got to knock out of the park. And then culturally, here are your priorities. Here’s where you need to spend your money. Here’s where you need to spend your time with your staff, if you’ve got any. If you don’t, it doesn’t matter. Here’s where you need to spend your time building your own business. And then together, those three assets, that performance triad of brand, reputation and culture, is what every company needs to succeed.

Marie 26:57

That’s awesome. Thank you for that. That’s really insightful and I think really helpful for anybody who’s building a business at the moment and thinking, well, how do I establish a brand, and how do I make my company, how do I actually establish a company? Because I feel that without these things, do you really have a business, or are you just transacting and providing stuff?

Guest 27:17

Yeah, that’s a good point. It’s easy enough to register a company now and just say, “There it is,” but you don’t actually have a brand. If we think about a brand being the collection of thoughts that a group of people have about a particular thing, if there’s not a group of people, there’s no brand.

Marie 27:32

That’s right, yeah. It’s really interesting. Thank you so much, Karl. That was really insightful and I’m sure really helpful to those who are listening. And even I learned a lot, and I’m thrilled that I was able to get this time with you without having to pay for your expertise.

Guest 27:47

No one said anything about that.

Marie 27:50

Don’t send me an invoice. I’m just going to ghost you.

Guest 27:54

Are you kidding me? Now, back to 2002, you were about 22, and I was asked to do an executive presence, presentation skills mastery program with you. So I had eight or 10 people in that room, one of which is now my wife, which was probably the best outcome. But I remember, I’d been doing this for a couple of years, watching you present, thinking, I do not know, you’re either going to be incredibly successful, you’re so engaging, or you’re going to prison. From my knowledge, it’s sort of two out of three at the moment.

Marie 28:28

Could go either way. I’ve dodged prison. Although I have to tell you, I’ve got my youngest kid, we always look at her and say, either she’s going to do something great or, mate, thank God her dad’s a lawyer.

Guest 28:38

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If she’s anything like you, I think that’s bang on.

Marie 28:44

Are you doing any more coaching or presentation training or stuff like that, or have you left it there?

Guest 28:49

I haven’t done it for years. You were brilliant at it. Those years were good fun at the time. It was exhausting, and I got to work with some excellent people. I mean, that was probably one of the best things.

I sort of roll it into some of the work I do now with celebrity and high-profile individuals. If we’re doing reputation work, a couple of premiers, and the Australian cricket team and swim team over the years and that sort of thing, Australian of the Year, where we look at their reputation, and then the things that influence their reputation, obviously, is the way they present themselves in public. So if they do need a touch-up, and some do and some don’t. If you think about Mike Baird, who we’ve worked with over the years, he didn’t need any help. He’s a brilliant, engaging leader that didn’t need too much. But it was just wonderful to watch his short but very effective tenure in Parliament. That’s going to be very polarising for your listeners, I’m sure, but he did some great things.

Marie 29:38

You brought it up, so now I’m really interested. Okay, sure. Julia Gillard. The way in which she presented herself, do you think that that did her any favours?

Guest 29:50

No, of course not. Of course not. She, and I’m going to stay away from any perspective or view on her policy, but her personal behaviours needed a heap of work. She needed a lot of coaching. Some people in Australia, of course, don’t want a more polished version of a person, but from my perspective, even keeping her authenticity and her genuine, sincere nature, we could have probably helped her be more appealing and get a message across without some of the confusion that was created at the time.

Marie 30:21

Can you help Donald Trump? I don’t think you’d work with him if he asked, but if he did, and you didn’t have ethics and morals, do you think you could help?

Guest 30:29

That’s the best question I’ve ever been asked, because the other elements sort of preclude me from even thinking about it. Because he’s the worst leader in my lifetime, anywhere, in any realm. Could he be helped? Absolutely not. I think he’s a hardwired narcissistic psychopath, and I think the world would be better without him in it. And I definitely wouldn’t help him.

Marie 30:57

And that I knew, which is why I premised it, if you had no ethics or morals. No, I know. I definitely know you wouldn’t. Karl, I could talk to you all day. You have to be one of the most interesting people ever, and the most intelligent. Thank you so much for giving me some of your time. I genuinely really appreciate it.

Guest 31:14

I could talk to you too, only because you say things like that about me.

Marie 31:18

I’ll actually save that recording every time I need something. Yeah, terrific, perfect. You’re the best. Thank you so much, Karl.

Guest 31:27

No problem. It’s been great. Thank you. Thanks, Marie.

Marie 31:39

And that’s Commical for this week. If you’d like to join the show, suggest a topic, or ask me a question, hit me up on Instagram at MarieLDal, or email me at comicalpodcast@gmail.com. Thanks so much for listening. See ya.