How to speak up at work

Commical – Episode title: How to speak up at work

Published 15/04/2020 on Chasing Albert website, spotify and apple podcasts.

Marie 00:09

If you've ever felt a sense of dread or fear about a particular conversation, then you are going to understand communication apprehension very well. Communication apprehension is a state of fear or anxiety about a communication situation. It happens to all of us in different situations and to varying degrees. For some people, it's really bad, to the point where they feel incapacitated, whilst others might just avoid a particular communication experience altogether. I have an amazing story today. My guest, Tamara Jawad, is one of the most incredibly talented PR professionals in the game, and when she got offered a job at the Parramatta Eels, she was three months pregnant. She overcame her communication apprehension. She'll share her story with us today, and you might just pick up some tips on how to manage it yourself. Oprah, Steve Jobs, Andrew Denton and, to me, these guys are masters of communication. The rest of us, well, mainly you, because I'm a pro, fumble our way through. Commical examines this funny little thing called communication that can either tear us down or make us soar. Join me. I'm an amateur comedian and a communication expert. Join me and listen, learn and laugh through the experiences of my very talented guests.

Marie 01:30

Tam, yeah, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm almost happy this whole coronavirus situation has occurred, otherwise I probably would have never had the time to talk to you.

Guest 01:43

I know. I remember us talking about it, wanting to set it up, and you were probably going to come into my office before I lost my job. But now that I'm here at home in my pyjamas on my bed, you're unemployed, so I have the opportunity.

Marie 01:57

I know. Unemployment does well.

Marie 02:01

You are not unemployed. You're just working reduced hours, right, until this whole thing is over.

Guest 02:07

Yeah. Horribly reduced, but reduced all the same.

Marie 02:15

Yeah. And now you know that podcasting normally is much more glamorous than what you and I are doing now. But, I mean, in this day and age, I had to wait for the kids to be asleep and have somewhere quiet to hide.

Guest 02:27

Same here. For the first time, I've actually locked the door of my bedroom, because every now and then my two kids also come out and have excuses like, 'Mum, I'm thirsty. I need water,' things like that. So I was like, I can't risk this, so I've locked the door. All is safe at home in my bedroom.

Marie 02:44

Thank you. Thank you. I feel like I'm getting to know you even more now. It's a little bit more intimate than I would have liked, but nonetheless. Now, you have been with the Parramatta Eels for quite some time now.

Guest 02:58

Yep. Three years, but I had a maternity leave break in between. So I had about eight months' maternity leave, only six months into the role.

Marie 03:05

Yeah, that is totally bizarre. That's exactly where I want to start. So you were with your second child when you were approached for this job, which I think was like your dream job at the time, correct?

Guest 03:18

Yes. So I'll just take it back a little bit, because I was already working part-time because I'd had my first child. So actually going back into the workforce after having my first child was far more challenging than I thought, because I thought I was shit hot and everyone would hire me, and it'd be so easy. But actually finding part-time work, first of all, my old job had said to me they would only accept me four days, not three, which, as you know, if you have to put your child into childcare for four days, there's really no point in working, because that's my whole salary gone.

Guest 03:54

So I had to look for another job, which took me actually a while. So I was off work for about 15 months. And then I finally found some part-time work, and that's when we were working together at Weber. And I was there for about, I'd say, four months, and the head of comms at Parramatta Eels contacted me and said, 'Hey, we've had a restructure. Would you like to come work with me at Parramatta Eels?' And I guess anyone who knows me knows that rugby league is my passion. I mean, I don't play any sport. For some reason, it's my passion.

Marie 04:29

I've seen you run to the food court.

Guest 04:34

That's as much exercise as I've done in my life, basically. And since I was - well, probably since I started in PR - my dream job was to be a media manager for a football club, rugby league specifically.

Guest 04:50

So I was kind of put in a bit of a situation, because I had been working at Weber for about only four months, and I had a bit of loyalty to them because they hired me, and they were quite flexible with my work arrangements so I could pick up my daughter from childcare. But then I was also faced with a challenge of potentially working in my dream job, which I found very hard to say no to. So that's kind of how it all started. And I remember having conversations with you about it and not knowing what to do exactly.

Marie 05:20

For the record, I remember you saying to me at the time, 'I really want this job, but I'm effing pregnant.'

Guest 05:29

And I know he didn't know I was pregnant when he offered it to me. So the head of comms at Parramatta Eels didn't know. And I remember sitting with you saying, 'What am I going to say to him? What if I lose this opportunity because I'm going to have to go on maternity leave six months after I start?' And I remember brainstorming with you because I wanted to also be fair to Weber, who had given me a job as well.

Guest 06:00

And so I think I just called him and I was just honest with him before I accepted the offer. I said, 'Listen, before I sign anything and you take this on,' because I wanted to be transparent with him, 'I've got to tell you that I'm pregnant.' And I'm only three months pregnant. At the time, I wasn't even - I think I was something like eight or nine weeks pregnant - but by the time I started the role, I would have been three months pregnant.

Guest 06:24

And he didn't even hesitate. He just said, 'That's fine. We'll work it out.' And I believe he may have said something to me like, 'Did you guys have a relationship before this? Why is he being so flexible with you?' I said, 'I swear I owe him nothing. I've just known him for a while.'

Guest 06:38

So I know we had worked together. He was previously a client of mine when he was working at an IT company when I was in IT PR, so he trusted me, I guess, and I knew him quite well. But it was a risk that he was willing to take, and I'm probably forever grateful for it.

Marie 06:51

Was there a time where you actually thought, 'Oh, I just don't want to tell him. I'm just not going to take on the role because I don't want to even approach this subject, that I'm pregnant'? Did you convince yourself that maybe they would just say no, and so there was no point?

Guest 07:07

100%. I thought there was more chance of him saying, 'No, sorry. I can't take someone on and explain to the business that I'm going to have to then bring someone else on in six months to cover this role.' Because when you're a media manager, internally there's so many relationships that you have to deal with, especially in sport. There's like 30 players, the coach, then you've got the CEO, the board, so many different relationships. And if you start and then bring someone else in after six months, it's difficult.

Guest 07:41

But when you've got an understanding boss, I guess, and a good team around you, you just find ways to make it work. And when I went on maternity leave, I wasn't offline. I was still there, pretty much contactable any time anyone wanted to talk to me. Media who didn't know I was on leave would still contact me, and I would oblige, obviously. So it worked out.

Marie 07:59

Do you think, had your boss not known you and you not him, that things would have panned out this way?

Guest 08:06

Quite possibly. I'm not 100% sure, but yeah, probably. I mean, I think it would have affected - if I was in his shoes, to be quite honest with you - it probably would have affected my decision as well. So as much as I would like to be flexible and I'd want to give everyone an opportunity, if I wasn't 100% sure that it was going to work out in the long run, then it would probably be too much of a risk to take someone on and then change them after six months in such a big role.

Guest 08:35

So I guess having the relationship with him - I think I've known him now for well over 10 years - having a professional relationship with him beforehand, and him being able to trust me and vice versa, helped definitely.

Marie 08:47

How did you plan for the conversation? Did you spend time preparing? I remember when we were brainstorming, you were taking notes. Did I -

Guest 08:55

Write down? I wrote down dot points. I wrote down dot points. And I remember also talking to our colleague Linda about it as well. And we were furiously writing down dot points and scenarios. And the key to it was - well, I thought the key to it was - I had to give him a solution for what happens when I have to go on leave.

Guest 09:18

So I'd already spoken to him about people who I knew would be good for the role in a contract scenario while I was on leave for eight months, and I was brainstorming ideas, but the conversation didn't even get there. So he was quite understanding pretty much straight away. As soon as I said to him, 'Listen, I totally understand if this is not going to work out because I'm pregnant,' he was like, 'Oh, I'm sure we can make it work. It'll be fine.' He was just really understanding.

Marie 09:44

What a legend. How did the rest of the team take it internally when you rock up and you brought a friend?

Guest 09:53

Oh, you mean at Parramatta Eels, when I started and I was pregnant? Yes, everybody just looked at me like, 'What's actually going on here? Why do we have a new person starting if the new person is pregnant?' And for those people who know me, when I'm three months pregnant, I look like I'm full-term. So it probably would have been shocking for some people who thought I was about to give birth then and there.

Guest 10:20

Imagine you were working in an office environment, a very fast-paced one, and someone new comes in, a manager role, and they're quite pregnant. I mean, you'd probably be like, why would you hire someone who's going to be on leave shortly? So I didn't really have too many conversations with people about it, but I can only imagine that they probably would have questioned my boss's decision to hire me.

Marie 10:56

You know, as somebody who is an employer, honestly, Tam, I think to myself, I do understand some of the fears about hiring somebody who's pregnant, thinking about, 'Well, shit, I'm going to have to replace them soon. What if they change their mind and don't want to come back?' I understand that. But I also feel like good people are really hard to find, and there are a lot of very talented, experienced women who'd be having babies right at a point where their career is at its peak, and it would be a massive opportunity to not hire them because they were pregnant.

Guest 11:31

Well, it happens all the time. I mean, even trying to get back into the workforce after you've had a child, there are so many really talented women I know who just can't find the right gig for the position that they're in. And that's the gender pay gap we're talking about, that your career almost stalls when you have children because you can no longer climb up that ladder and be given the same opportunities that your male peers would have, because you've kind of got two jobs at the same time.

Guest 12:00

Unless you're one of the ones who becomes the main worker and then the partner is the caregiver to the children. But often we don't see that. It's usually the mother, the woman, who is taking care of the kids and also working part-time.

Marie 12:14

Is it unusual? I mean, some people might find it unusual that a rugby league team, no less, would be hiring a pregnant woman. It's not what you'd expect from a perception perspective anyway, given people see it as such a masculine environment with so much toxic masculinity. Maybe for them to hire somebody pregnant - were you shocked?

Guest 12:35

I was. I was a little bit surprised, not just that it was rugby league, but just that under any circumstances you'd hire a pregnant woman three months pregnant. But I think, to your point about it being rugby league, having worked in rugby league now and spoken to a lot of people who have been in rugby league for a long time and in sport, it's changed. The industry has changed so much.

Guest 12:59

So I think they've gone from being run like football clubs and a boys' club, and past players getting jobs like marketing managers and stuff like that, to being a proper business run like a professional business. So you no longer can get away with doing the things that you used to do as a football club in the 80s or even 90s. That toxic masculinity doesn't really exist anymore - at least in the front office, it doesn't.

Guest 13:29

I'm sure when you go into the locker room with the boys, I've heard all sorts of things, but they don't know I'm there. So that's boys. I mean, that probably happens when my husband goes away on a weekend trip with his mates. Put boys together and they're a bit funny like that. But in terms of a business sense, and speaking just, I guess - I can't speak for everybody - but speaking in my workplace, which is at Parramatta Eels, it's definitely come a long way, and it's definitely a professional working environment where women are respected, and I've always felt respected as a woman.

Marie 13:57

That's amazing. They're a good group that you work with. Now, when you talk about having the conversation with your boss and telling him that you were pregnant, you'd gone through the process of not only taking notes down in terms of how do I approach this, the other thing that you would have planned would have been, okay, well, one, how do I approach it, and B, how can I help solve the problem that's going to be posed in six months' time? And in doing that, making sure that you're going in there with a solution and a real shot to take this job on, which is fantastic.

Marie 14:31

I find that some people, when they're faced with a situation where they're maybe apprehensive about communicating something, they sometimes feel a little bit lost as to how to approach the conversation in general.

Guest 14:46

Yeah. I guess for me, probably because I maybe had a previous relationship with him as a client, I kind of had an idea of who he was. But also, nothing makes me feel more uncomfortable than bullshitting. So if I even stretched the truth a little bit and waited until I signed the contract and said, 'Oh hey, I just found out I was pregnant. Sorry,' that would have made me so uncomfortable, just with my own personal morals and ethics.

Guest 15:10

And I guess starting a business relationship or a working relationship that way just wouldn't have worked. He probably would have known that I knew I was pregnant, and then to go in there starting off like that just would have put a strain, I think, on the relationship and on his ability to trust me as his employee.

Marie 15:30

Were you nervous when you had the chat?

Guest 15:34

I was so nervous. I had to go into a room and close the door, because for me this was the opportunity of a lifetime. So this was literally my dream job. And then to think that the timing could have ruined that for me - and you don't get these opportunities very often - so if I had missed this opportunity, it's not like he was going to say, 'Okay, I'll call you back in a year. Let's see where we're at.' He would have had to give it to somebody else.

Guest 16:00

And these jobs don't come up very often, especially if you don't have experience in that field itself. So my background was IT and consumer PR, not sports. And just telling him that I watch every rugby league game does not mean I have experience in sport.

Marie 16:14

You know, Tam, some people might not even have gone in there approaching it from a perspective that, 'I actually am going to go for this job.' Some people would have just gone in and said, 'Look, thank you so much for thinking of me, but I'm pregnant.' And then that would have been on the employer to either step up and say, 'Well, that's okay,' or perhaps they would be apprehensive in saying that, thinking, 'I don't want to encourage somebody who's pregnant.'

Guest 16:43

Yeah. Well, I think that's sometimes where, as women, we shoot ourselves in the foot as well, because we're always worried about maybe what someone else is going to think or how we're going to impact somebody else, instead of just taking the bull by the horns and going, 'You know what? I can do this. And here's a solution, and we can work through the time when I'm pushing a baby out and then having to breastfeed for a few months.' But that's life, and that's what happens.

Guest 17:12

And it's almost like having a bit more self-respect for us as professional career women as well. You've just got to believe in yourself and know that you are the best person for the job. Just because you're pregnant, about to have a baby, that doesn't stop everything. There are solutions to this. I mean, we're not running for the presidency here. It's not brain surgery.

Marie 17:29

But even if you were, there have been people who have been in prime ministerial positions that have been pregnant and had kids, and that hasn't been a problem.

Guest 17:41

Yeah, 100%. And that's something to be admired, and that's something we should keep trying to push towards, I think, rather than making excuses and always trying to please and making it easier for other people. We should still try and get those opportunities that we really want.

Marie 17:55

100%. And I also think that one of the things is to change our mindset and not just assume that the response on the other side is going to be, 'Oh, well, that's too bad.'

Guest 18:05

Yeah, 100%. And I actually think he probably would have been disappointed if I had said to him, 'Oh, sorry, I'm actually pregnant. Bummed about the timing. Maybe next time.' He probably would have been quite disappointed with that. But I think if you show a bit of tenacity and a bit of resilience and, 'I really want this and I'm going to make it work,' honestly, attitude is half the battle these days with work.

Marie 18:28

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it helps in your case that you knew him and he had the security of knowing that you were going to be amazing at the job.

Guest 18:37

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to admit that I'm amazing at the job, but I'm okay.

Marie 18:41

No, you're not. I'm just suggesting he might have thought that. Yeah, well, I'm kidding, but it's true. If you approach someone and they know you're already good, they've worked with you before, you're going to be a good fit. He could hire anybody in a year or two years and they're going to have a baby.

Marie 19:00

I think in your position what made it that little bit easier is that he knew you. Now, the people in the organisation didn't, so he would have had to convince them that, 'Hey, believe me, this is going to be a really good move for us.'

Guest 19:15

Yeah, exactly. And that's another thing I think that's really important, especially in our industry, is relationships. So never, ever burn your bridges, even though sometimes you might want to burn that bridge. It's really important. You just never know the people you're going to bump into, the opportunities they have.

Guest 19:40

And that's anyone. There could be someone who, when you started in a job as a professional, may have been lower than you in the hierarchy. Eventually they might have a position that they can then help you out with. So it's really important to keep those relationships going. And I remember I stayed in touch with him even when he wasn't a client. Through different networks, seeing him at events, I'd always make an effort to go chat. I guess it's just important to keep those relationships going in our industry.

Marie 20:06

That's what PR is all about, right? Absolutely, absolutely it is. And on the note of communication, I think there's four things for people or women who might find themselves in a situation where there's a job that they really want and they're uncertain about how they go for it. I think there's four things that maybe a woman can do to help overcome some of the communication apprehension they may feel about having the conversation.

Marie 20:31

And I think the first one is prepare and actually practise. So think about what it is that I'm going to pitch, why I'm good for this job, and why my pregnancy is irrelevant.

Guest 20:43

And believe it. Not just, 'I'm trying to convince myself I'm good enough.' Believe that you are good enough, because if someone's called you back for an interview, if you've been approached by someone for an interview or even to take on a job, then you absolutely are good enough.

Marie 20:57

Now that's a really good point. I think the second one is - and you touch on it - focus on success. Think positively. Focus on the fact that, yeah, you do stand a chance, and then you go in with a chance to achieve exactly that when you really, truly believe it.

Marie 21:16

And I think the third one is familiarising yourself with the situation, which helps to reduce ambiguity and will help with the planning and make you feel more comfortable. So getting to know the company, researching, trying to understand who it is that you're going to be speaking to, and talking to anybody who might know them, I think, will help - particularly if they don't know the person interviewing, like you did, for instance.

Marie 21:40

And I think the last one is just try and relax. I know it's hard to do in practice, but calming yourself down, going into a room, closing that door, taking that deep breath before you go in to have the conversation.

Guest 21:50

Well, preparing helps you to relax. If you're prepared and you're pretty confident with what you're going to say, and if you can anticipate some of the questions that might be asked and have answers ready, then I think, yeah, that helps me relax and take a conversation head-on.

Marie 22:07

And then, you know what? Whatever happens from there has nothing to do with you or your pregnancy.

Guest 22:14

No, no, absolutely not. There's things you just can't control. I mean, if you get pregnant, whether it's by choice or not, you're pregnant. And if an opportunity comes up and it's not the right time, that's okay as well. There will be other opportunities. I guess I was just telling my story about it being my dream job. But opportunities come and go all the time.

Marie 22:34

Except your dream one. Pretty special.

Guest 22:39

Yeah, look, I would have absolutely kicked myself so hard if I didn't actually go for the job. So I am grateful that I did.

Marie 22:48

You know what? I've only just remembered this. Oh my God. I don't know why I didn't think of it before I had the conversation with you. But how's this? I did get approached by a recruiter for a job, a very senior job in sport, but on the broadcast side - on the broadcast side - when I was pregnant with my second baby.

Guest 23:08

No way. You didn't tell me about this.

Marie 23:11

You know what? We talk about it now, or do we have to only talk about it now because I ignored all the advice that I just shared?

Guest 23:20

Talk to me. Who was it?

Marie 23:22

I can't tell you that. I'd have to kill you. But I can tell you it was a recruiter, and he was recruiting on behalf of a sports channel, and they were looking for a head of comms, a head of publicity and promotions. Got it?

Guest 23:43

You'd be amazing at that, Marie. I have no doubt. I'm not mentioning you to my boss.

Marie 23:56

I am just kidding. But when he reached out to me on LinkedIn and said, 'Hey, I'd really love to have a chat. We've got this job going. Would you like to have a conversation?' I was like, 'Absolutely. Feel free to give me a call,' and passed on my number. And so I listened to what he had to say, and I said, 'Look, I'm absolutely interested in applying for this job.'

Marie 24:29

I think with your second I was pregnant, yep. How far along? And this was probably four months, three, four months, yeah. But the difference is I didn't know this guy. He had no idea who I was, but he had approached me. Someone had referred me or something like that. And so I gave him a quick spiel. I wasn't prepared in any way. It was just kind of off the cuff because, you know me, I just swing those balls left, right and centre anyway.

Marie 24:57

And I was just on the phone, 'Dude, this is what it is.' We spoke about the job, and then I said, 'Hey, by the way, I am pregnant, but I don't think that changes anything for me. Still really keen to pursue the opportunity,' et cetera, et cetera. And so he said, 'Look, let me think about it and I'll get back to you.' And then I got a message on LinkedIn, 'Yeah, it's just not great timing.'

Guest 25:13

Do you think there's anything you could have done differently?

Marie 25:16

You know, I actually haven't reflected on it. Like I said, I only just remembered that it happened literally as we were speaking right now. But when I think about it, oh yeah, I think I could have taken it way more seriously rather than so off the cuff. And sometimes - I mean, this is one of my flaws - I think sometimes I get really cocky with how I communicate.

Guest 25:41

Why wouldn't you want me even while I'm giving birth?

Marie 25:45

I'm like, 'Hello, you should be so lucky.' But I do think that had I planned it better and thought it through a little bit better and put forward a better case, that things might have gone a little bit further. But again, I think when there's a recruiter involved, it's really different, because recruiters, I think, have a very clear brief on who to bring through the door.

Guest 26:13

Yeah, yeah. The employer probably doesn't know you, and they probably would have seen that as possibly a risk for them if they don't know you personally. So they probably would have thought, if it's a senior person, 'Oh, am I going to have to pay a recruiter in another three months to then try and hire a replacement?' So I'm not sure there's anything that you could have possibly done in that scenario, to be honest with you.

Marie 26:35

I might go back and ask him.

Guest 26:37

Do it, and then let him hear this podcast. Listen to this.

Marie 26:42

Okay, and say, 'Look, on the scout's honour...' I'll send him a photo. Swing those balls.

Marie 26:58

You're the best. Tam, thank you so much for joining me and having a laugh and sharing your story.

Guest 27:03

Thank you. This has been the absolute highlight of my two-week quarantine. So I could do this again any time.

Marie 27:09

All right, I'll try and think of another topic and I'll ring you tomorrow.

Guest 27:14

Yeah, yeah, man, any time.

Marie 27:16

We can maybe do something to do with handling young, troublesome football players, maybe.

Guest 27:26

Oh, it'll be a longer call than this one, mate. I've got lots to talk to you about with that. That's where the interesting stuff is.

Marie 27:36

I know, right? Well, listen, this was just to warm you up. So I think it's only fair that we tell everybody your current situation, which is that you're pregnant with baby number three.

Guest 27:48

Yes, I'm pregnant again. I wish my husband would stop tapping me on the shoulder, to be honest. People at home - what's there to do, really? Exactly, exactly. Well, yeah, so baby number three. So I'm actually due to go on maternity leave, and I actually want to take this opportunity to give my employer another wrap.

Guest 28:11

We've all been stood down from our positions because NRL is effectively not in operation at the moment, and we're getting absolutely no revenue, but they have kindly left me on one day a week until I am able to get maternity leave. So that's awfully generous of them. And I didn't ask for that. They just, off their own back, did that for me. So I'm very proud.

Marie 28:36

You might be doing something right there, Tam. I mean, I can't imagine what it might be, but it's -

Guest 28:42

Definitely my husband's child. It's definitely my husband's child.

Marie 28:49

No, that is wonderful of them. Definitely. It's a really, really generous move on their part.

Guest 28:55

Yeah, yeah. And that, to be honest with you, when your employer does things like that for you, you want to go above and beyond for them as well. So I'll be on call seven days a week, you know what I mean?

Marie 29:07

I don't think they'd accept that, but I think as long as you don't leave them to go to the Bulldogs, they might just be okay.

Guest 29:15

Oh yeah, that would be death. Yeah.

Marie 29:21

Thanks again, Tam. It's been such a pleasure having a chat with you. I really missed our conversations.

Guest 29:28

Yeah, same. Let's do this more often, for sure.

Marie 29:31

With the recording or without?

Guest 29:33

Without. I've got too many juicy stories.

Marie 29:36

You're too naughty. Okay.

Marie 29:40

All right, I'll talk to you soon. Thanks again.

Guest 29:43

You too. Bye, love. See ya. Bye.

Marie 29:48

That's Commical for this week. If you'd like to join the show, suggest a topic or ask me a question, hit me up on Instagram at marieldagul, or email me at comicalpodcast@gmail.com. Thanks so much for listening. See ya.