The RAP Effect

Commical – Episode title: The RAP Effect

Published 15/05/2025 on Chasing Albert website, spotify and apple podcasts.

Marie 00:11

For those listening I've just moved into a new office, and I've brought in all my podcasting equipment, and of course, I've forgotten the microphone stand. So not only have we recorded this episode now three times, I am also holding this very heavy microphone, so I'll try to keep it steady. But bear with me. Adrienne, you also, I have to say, we've had headphone issues, and since over the three different interviews we've conducted maybe over the last six weeks. You've had a baby?

Guest 00:44

I have had a baby. Yes, baby. Chase Cheatham birthed here on beautiful Ngunnawal and nbery country on the 10th of March, Monday, the 10th of March. He was born at 3:33pm which is an angel number, and I've now got that tattooed on my hand.

Marie 01:00

Oh, how so your kid's two months old? That two weeks old? Yeah, I should say, and you already got a tattoo.

Guest 01:06

Forget some ink Absolutely. Actually, I got two. I got his name on me as well, just in case I forget you.

Marie 01:13

Yeah, well, the kind of hours that you'll be doing? Yeah, you you'll forget more than his name.

Guest 01:18

Yeah, I've had a bit of spare time on my hands. So, no, it's been a beautiful two and a half weeks, lots of baby cuddles broke lots of broken sleep, but it's been, it's been beautiful nonetheless, and feeling very grateful and blessed. And of course, my first born, Zaya, she's a big sister now, and she's just really embraced and leaned into that role as a big sister, and so proud of her. And yeah, some time off work at the moment, so I've fit you into my busy schedule and and looking forward to this yarn.

Marie 01:50

Can I tell you, after I had my second kid, there would be no way I'd be able to hold a conversation? So hats off. Let's see how you go.

Guest 01:57

You did just remind me that it was Wednesday, so thank you for that. And I've got my coffee here, so I should be at least good to get by this next 30 minutes or so.

Marie 02:06

Awesome. All right. Well, let's get started. Let's do it. Okay. The first thing that I think listeners should know is who you are, sure. So you are with Reconciliation Australia, and you've got the very fancy title of senior manager strategy and innovation for the rap program, correct? And is your salary as long as your title I wish.

Guest 02:29

But fortunately, the work that I do is very meaningful. So yes, Senior Manager for strategy and innovation for the Reconciliation Action Plan program. What that role is really about is the way that we use data and insights research to inform and shape the ongoing work of the program, the program strategy. It's around the quantity of data that we get through our workplace, wrap barometer, research, the RAP Impact Report, which is available on our website for your listeners and for you to check out, but it's also importantly about the yarns that we have with our First Nations stakeholders, and how that feedback continues to shape the strategy and the work of the rap program in a meaningful way that

Marie 03:15

so maybe, maybe a good place to start is tell us about what Reconciliation Australia is,.

Guest 03:24

A lright, so Reconciliation Australia is a independent, not for profit organization that was established in 2001 it actually grew out of the work of the Aboriginal reconciliation Council in the 90s. So a lot of work that was done in the 90s and really laid the foundations for the work of Reconciliation Australia, that it's been doing the work that we do now for around 25 years, 25 years that we were established in in 2001 and our vision is to create a just, equitable and reconciled Australia.

Marie 04:03

And where does the rap program fit? So RAP stands for Reconciliation Action Plan?

Guest 04:11

Absolutely. Yeah.

Marie 04:11

When were they introduced and what are they about?

Guest 04:12

So our vision that I just mentioned is based and measured on five interrelated dimensions that form a comprehensive and bigger picture of reconciliation. So those five dimensions are historical acceptance, institutional integrity, race relations, equality and equity and unity. And our role at Reconciliation Australia is to create pathways for non Indigenous peoples, for businesses and organizations to engage with these five dimensions of reconciliation. And one of those pathways is the rap program, the Reconciliation Action Program. The rap program began in 2006 with just eight organizations from distinct sectors of the Australian economy, and today there's over 3300 organizations with a Reconciliation Action Plan representing a diverse. Us an interconnected network of organizations, ecosystem representing every industry across the Australian economy. So it's been so much growth over time, some of those organizations that began back in 2006 are still engaged in the program.

Marie 05:20

Really?

Guest 05:21

yeah, absolutely, yeah. So that's really great.

Marie 05:23

How did you choose those eight?

Guest 05:21

Well they, I guess, you know, similar they started similar to the journey that you're on. I think it really begins with that reflection, self reflection, looking at the opportunity to contribute to this national reconciliation movement. You know, wanting to go beyond good intentions and words and deliver meaningful action.

Marie 05:44

Yeah, that's for me, that's what led me here. Yeah, is that absolutely always well intentioned, you know? And I recently, just in January, actually interviewed Reese Paddock, who is the culturally, cultural dissensitivity expert. He was talking to me about how to basically, ways that you can ditch the fear. Because one of the things I was telling him was, you know, I have all these good intentions, and I want to be an ally to our First Nations people and but I feel like a bit of a fraud. You know, I want to do more than just say I recognize the, you know, in the traditional owners of the land. I said, Surely, there's more that I can, I can do. So he provided amazing guidance from on a personal level. And then the bit that was kind of missing for me personally was I'm also a business owner. What can I do on a professional basis, which led me to the rap framework.

Guest 06:44

And the framework so it's designed to meet organizations and businesses such as yours, where they're at, right? And I think you're not alone in that feeling of, you know, not wanting to get it wrong, and that kind of, you know, feeling shame and whatnot. I I remember when I started my professional journey in the reconciliation space was around 2016 2017 and I the first task, the first job, the first role I had at this organization was to drive to Wollongong and negotiate a national contract for cultural awareness training with an Aboriginal business. I really love the business model of this particular business as well. It was an Aboriginal elder from the from Noongar country in Perth with a non Indigenous person. So, you know, that's reconciliation in action, working side by side. And I negotiated this national contract, and I actually got to travel around to each of the sites across Australia and sit in on this training. And just for me, that was such a great learning opportunity for myself, because I don't know about you, but I didn't learn about Aboriginal Torres, Strait Islander histories and cultures in school. And you know, so I think, like I said, many people are coming from the same space, and that's okay. I think it's important to acknowledge that you don't know what you don't know, but it's much better to approach this journey with humility and with openness and to get it wrong, but to own that, and then through that, that's where relationships are strengthened, versus not doing anything at all.

Marie 08:14

Right, yeah. And you know what? I didn't learn it at school. And it kind of entered my world in two ways. The first being starting to hear going to corporate events and hearing the acknowledgement of country, or watching a welcome to country. And that got me thinking. And then also the noise that started to be made around, you know, change the date. And these two things started to make me think, hang on a second. I know nothing. You know. I absolutely know nothing about the history I did already know. Like, if you know some of Australian history, no matter how you're taught it, I think it's very clear that it was an invasion, yeah. Do you know, like that to me was that was evident, but I never sat and thought about, well, what did that mean, and what was the implication? And actually, you know what, I lie in high school in Legal Studies, we did learn about the impact of or the number of First Nations people that were incarcerated, and the way that they're treated in jail. So that actually was the first time I kind of got a sense of what was happening in the First Nations communities, but that was it. So the rest I pretty much had to go and learn on my own. And I'm ashamed to admit that I probably did it too late, yeah, but I'm doing it now.

Guest 09:40

I think it's never too late. And I think there was actually a really a great episode of four corners the other night aired on ABC, which should be available in ABC. I view about the euric Justice Commission, which is a four year Victorian Royal Commission led by a First Nations group in in Victoria, that you. Documents their process towards truth telling. So I'd recommend, you know, check that out and for your listeners as well. But I think it's never too late to start on this journey. And of course, Reconciliation Action plans provide a pathway for businesses and organizations to do just that.

Marie 10:16

And what I liked about the Reconciliation Action Plan is it's very structured. So as a business owner and someone who's going in this kind of alone, I don't have my, you know, big HR teams and whatever helping me. I'm navigating this alone. The scaffolding is there. I feel to take you step by step into how you start to close that gap be and I like the place that starts. Like I looked at what's the first tier? Was it reflected? Yeah.

Guest 10:44

So the rise framework, I believe it was introduced in 2013 so there are four different wrap types, reflect, innovate, stretch and elevate. And the reflect wrap, the one you're talking about, is really for organizations to begin that journey of of reconciliation, and that's what the reflect wraps designed to do. It's a 12 to 18 month strategy that allows you to or enables those conversations within your own business or organizations about reconciliation.

Marie 11:12

Yeah, I liked that. I was like, this is like, a really good checklist, and I don't know if it was in the reflect stage, but even little things like what organizations like, who? What land do you want? Which, which First Nations organizations are in your area? Go and connect with them. Go and meet with some people. And I was like, Oh, my God, so fundamental, as silly as it sounds,

Guest 11:34

yeah, I know that that was something you discussed with Reese. I enjoyed listening to both of those podcasts and the importance about connecting the country. And I would say for myself, my own journey for reconciliation place has played such a really important role for me. I've lived and worked on Well, I've lived on Ngunnawal, ngambri country, probably for the last 30 years now, here in Canberra, and I've benefited from the wisdom and the knowledge of the elders and the broader community here Ngunnawal in every country is really unique in that there's mob from all across the country that live here now because it's such a hub for employment and education. So I've benefited from the diversity of First Nations, histories and cultures. There's evidence of Aboriginal occupation here that dates back 25,000 years, beyond which is before the last ice age. Evidence of that is actually out at the Baring guy rock shelter out at tidbim biller. We're, of course, home to the Aboriginal tent embassy that was established in 1972 which I believe is the longest continuation of protest for an indigenous peoples in the world, so that's really amazing. And I've had many opportunities afforded to me on these lands. Like I said, both my kids were birthed here, and that's something that really strengthens my connections to this place. So I think the places that we live, work and play shape who we are as individuals. They shape our families and our friends and our communities, and they afford us opportunities. And of course, these places also hold the stories of Aboriginal Torres, Strait Islander peoples and histories, and some of those stories date back 65,000 years. So for me, the journey of reconciliation is really about connecting with that and appreciating that. But we to our earlier point around truth telling, we also know that some of those stories are hard to come to terms with. They are about dispossession, illegal occupation of land, Stolen Generations, and we need to accept that as well so that we can move forward together.

Marie 13:35

And you uncovered a story very close to home, didn't you?

Guest 13:40

I did my story, I guess so, place has been a really core element for my reconciliation journey, personally as well. I'm a proud Wiradjuri man. My grandfather was born in Dubbo in central New South Wales, on Wiradjuri country. So my dad's dad. My mom's a non Indigenous woman. My dad Aboriginal and his father was born at one of the settlements in 1939 in Dubbo, and sadly, he was removed at age six as part of the Stolen Generations. He was taken away from his family. I can see that in my mind now the words on the documents that we received when grandpa passed away that show that he was being charged with neglect and was put into a boy's home in LA Peru in Sydney. And this is, there's actually a really, we'll get back to my story, but there's a documentary on Netflix that would be worth you and your listeners checking out. I believe I'll find the name of it and share it with you, and you can drop it perhaps in the chat, but it really means, you know, the removal of this, this woman and her journey, and it's the same words around neglect, oh my god, yeah, it's really heartbreaking. The last door. Daughter, it's called the last order. So, yeah, grandpa, he passed away when I was nine years old, and it wasn't until we received a bunch of documents from the child welfare department through a Freedom of Information request that we actually found out he was Aboriginal. We found out we were Aboriginal. We believe he always knew he was Aboriginal. I mean, like I said, he was born at one of the Aboriginal settlements in Dubbo, but back in those days, you could be sent to jail for speaking your language or practicing your culture. And of course, the trauma that being removed from your family creates meant for grandpa that he chose not to speak about his aboriginality. So this wasn't something he talked about with us while we knew him. It was when he passed away, which was really hard finding out about this once he was gone, to not be able to have those conversations and ask him those questions. So yeah, I think for me, the work that I do my purpose is really about advocating for the improved health and wellbeing for Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander peoples, based on my own challenges with mental health, but also witnessing what those impacts were to my family and to many other families. I think it's estimated around 100,000 children were removed from their families back in through the Stolen Generations. And you know, as a mother and me as a father, you can only imagine someone coming into your house now and taking your kids away, and the impact that that would have on you throughout the rest of your life. So, yeah.

Marie 16:32

that's that's crazy, isn't it? And those the ramifications are still being felt in the community today. That’s why programs like the rap program exist to help close that gap right and have better social and financial and health outcomes for the community

Guest 16:51

economic empowerment. It's about building the capacity and the capability of communities. The overall purpose of the rap program and the work that we do at Reconciliation Australia, is to support self determination for First Nations peoples. So it's about giving First Nations peoples the ownership and the capacity to make decisions that impact their lives. And that's really the overarching purpose of the rap program.

Marie 17:15

What are some of the outcomes? I know you put out an annual report. Have you got the latest report yet?

Guest 17:19

Or is it published very soon. So the timing of this conversation is spot on. I think the report will be coming out in the next week or two. But if you check out the stats from the 2023 rap Impact Report, we saw that last year or in 2023 over 70,001st Nations peoples were employed by an organization with a wrap, there was over $3.6 billion spent with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander businesses. And I think that's a really simple but meaningful opportunity for all businesses and organizations to contribute to reconciliation. Is to visit the supply nation website. It's essentially a register for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander businesses. There's over 5000 Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander verified businesses. On that website, there are businesses that deliver cultural awareness training, and I think education is so key to this this. 

Marie 18:13

Yeah, I agree, yeah, absolutely agree. That's a big that's a big part of what Reese does.

Guest 18:17

Yeah, absolutely. So no doubt Reese's businesses is on the supply nation website as a registered or certified business. There's actually consultants Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander consultants that work with businesses like yourself and and organizations to develop their apps as well. So if you don't have,

Marie 18:33

do you need it though? Adrian, is it something like, I think, if you don't have

Guest 18:38

that, that capability yet, inside your own business or organization, then, absolutely, I think it's really a great opportunity to partner with mob and to ensure that the work that you're doing and the development of your app and the implementation is shaped by First Nations people, so they can really provide that First Nations lens that perhaps your business or organization doesn't have, It may have, and in that case, you know, perhaps that's, you know, not, not as essential for you, but certainly there are many businesses and organizations that benefit from engaging a consultant. And of course, by doing that, you're contributing to, you know, First Nations Economic Empowerment as well. So it's that's part of the commitment of your rap, also

Marie 19:24

other than the economic empowerment, which is a massive, massive reason, and for me, it came from a place of purpose and values that my I wanted to have a business that has a rap framework that plays an active role In closing that gap. Okay, other businesses that come to you or that introduce a rap, do they come to you with any like what are the other reasons that that make businesses want to do this?

Guest 19:50

I think it's usually to have to make a meaningful contribution to this, this reconciliation movement. But I think also, there are a number of Ben. Efforts to the workplaces and to the organizations, and hopefully that's a realization for businesses and organizations as they approach Reconciliation Australia to engage on their rap journey. We know through our research that employees that are participating in a number of rap activities are more likely to recommend their organization is a great place to work. They're less likely to look for new work. They're more likely to be satisfied with their workplace. So reps do improve the well being of the broader workforce in the workplace. And that's not just relevant for First Nations peoples. That's we're seeing that with non Indigenous employees as well. So there are a number of benefits for for organizations and workplaces. And I think as we share the that research and the insights, hopefully that's a realization for organizations as well.

Marie 20:52

What about from an from an individual perspective, if I'm if I'm indigenous, for example, and I'm applying for work and I see that an organization has a rap, or is striving working towards one? Yep, what does that tell me? Or how does that make me feel?

Guest 21:06

Yeah, well, I think, you know, I can only speak from my own experience, right? I think First Nations peoples were so diverse, both in relation to our our cultures, but also our lived experiences. Personally, for me, I've worked in organizations that have wraps and organizations that don't have wraps, and certainly there's more of a sense of cultural safety, of genuine commitment and inclusion in relation to the workplaces that do have wraps. So I will only now look for work in workplaces where there are raps.

Marie 21:41

And how do you know, like, is it, do we get a badge? Do we get? Usually, I like a badge.

Guest 21:47

Usually on our website. Well, we do on our website, there's a who has a rap section, and we have all of the the organizations with a wrap listed on there. But hopefully, as well, going into the organization, you know, it's something that they're proud of and that they promote as well. So, you know, there's, there's that awareness as you are, either, you know, looking for employment within an organization, it's usually displayed on their websites as well. So personally, I would check that out to see whether or not they have a wrap shared on their website. The cultural safety is a big one, really, for sure.

Marie 22:19

Yep, yeah. So is there a cost associated with this? I mean, obviously, if you if you were to get a consultant to help you, there'd be a cost.

Guest 22:26

Yeah, there would be, and that differs depending on the consultant and how long they're engaged for. But the fee to develop a wrap is scaled according to organizations and your revenue. And you can visit our website to register to develop a wrap, and that's when you would pay. Firstly, actually, you'd complete an expression of interest, yep. And then you receive some basic program information to decide if a wrap is right for you, for your business, for your organization, you would then visit our registration portal, and at that point is when you would pay that that fee based on the revenue of your business or organization. That information is available on our website. Once you register to develop a wrap, you have 12 months to develop the wrap, and my team works with you to develop that that wrap and provide strategic feedback on that journey. And then the implementation begins, and that's when the, you know, the hard work, really begins. That's when the rubber hits the road.

Marie 23:26

And do you get, I mean, this might sound negative, but is there, is it policed? Like, for example, if I don't hit something or complete it, do I, you know, get in trouble? And do they revoke my rap? Like, what happens there?

Guest 23:39

So there's four different there's four core pillars to the rap relationships, respect, opportunities and governance. So usually for organizations and businesses, they would have a rap working group set up, and that's really where the policing happens, we would hope, is internally, that internal accountability and responsibility, there is annual reporting, and that's that wrap impact report that we just spoke about. So each at the end of each year, around September, October, organizations report on their wrap commitments, and we do review that information and provide feedback on that as well. And then once you move into that stretch and elevate space, particularly the Elevate space, we have a an annual peer review process for the Elevate wrap types, which where we engage an independent panel of First Nations peoples, and they review the progress to advancing to an elevate RAP.

Marie 24:35

Okay, and so the rise framework is different to what you just spoke about. So do I have to go through every stage, or can I just do reflect and go, thanks, this is enough for my little business for now, you

Guest 24:48

absolutely could just do a reflect RAP

Guest 24:51

the name the rise framework can trick businesses and organizations into thinking that the framework is linear. It's not like I said earlier. The frameworks designed to meet organizations and businesses with where they're at in saying that if your organization evolves in maturity, in growth, in resource capacity, you may naturally then advance to to the next reptile. We do have a framework document available on our website which includes a number of prerequisites and key expectations, where you can do a self assessment of your business or organization to understand what wrap type is best suited for you. We've got examples where organizations move from reflect to innovate to stretch to elevate, and we've got examples of organizations that just deliver successive innovates or reflect RAPs.

Marie 25:39

And it's all sized businesses too. I know you a lot of TAFEs and government organizations have these in place.

Guest 25:44

Yeah, absolutely. There's businesses with with 10s of 1000s of employees. There's a consultancy in Melbourne with only two employees. I believe there's actually a media company in Melbourne with only 14 employees. So that might be more relevant, you know, to the to the makeup of your business this, this particular business doesn't actually employ any First Nations peoples, but they do partner with a number of First Nations businesses to deliver outcomes together. Yeah, okay, these could be opportunities for you to explore through, through your business as well.

Marie 26:18

And what about if I'm thinking of some of my listeners and clients and former clients or whatever, where they might be in the HR department of a multinational that's headquartered in the US, okay, but I might have a big team in Australia. Am I do? I still qualify well. 

Guest 26:38

So to go through the rap framework, the purpose of the rap reconciliation, as I said, is defined by strengthening the relationships from an Australian context, so between the broader community and Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people. So it's really only focused on the work here within Australia. So that would be Yeah, the opportunity for organizations

Marie 26:59

more so they can still participate, would not exclude them at all. No, no. Okay. And so my final question is, if say, for example, you said one of those stages this, this is very scared, Marie, by the way, it's come from a place of, oh my god, workload.

Guest 27:17

That's the best place to come from is humility and openness and honesty, and I think you can't go wrong from there.

Marie 27:25

How supportive of you. Thank you for creating the safe space. Let's say something is supposed to take 18 months, but it's taking me 24 is that okay?

Guest 27:37

I think so. We do consider, on a case by case basis, extensions to wraps. So there would be, you know, you would put through a request to our team, and we would consider that. And, yeah, look, it's case by case. So it would be, depending on what the challenges are, kind of, you know, what you're experiencing in relation to those delays and and we would support you through that process. For sure. I'm excited. Adrian, I can't wait to receive your expression of interest. Marie, I'll be keeping an eye out for it, not over the next five weeks, because I'll be nursing my bubba. But yeah, I'm so grateful that you reached out to start your journey. I'd encourage any business organization representatives listening to to think about the impact that they can be having in relation to this broader reconciliation movement, and to really approach this journey with humility and with openness. And I think self reflection is such a really critical step to this journey. You've displayed that throughout our three conversations. And I think, you know, hopefully listeners, after listening to this episode, will practice that self reflection as well, and realizing that it's okay to not know what you don't know, but also to understand and identify how you can be having a meaningful impact in relation to this reconciliation movement.

Marie 28:59

And I'd love a partner in this journey. So if anyone out there has ever thought about it, or is now thinking about it, let's go.

Guest 29:06

And that's one of the benefits of the rap of engaging in the rap program, I think, is that you do become part of this ecosystem and interconnected network of over 3030 300 organizations with a wrap like minded organizations, and you can really lean on each other and contribute to this journey together and encourage you to reach out to that to supply nation. Look at that website, and perhaps there's First Nations businesses on there that you could be partnering with to enhance the work of your business and and also theirs.

Marie 29:39

Adrian, thank you for joining me for a third time.

Guest 29:42

Thank you. I hope we can speak again.

Marie 29:45

We will definitely speak again. Is are there any final thoughts that you wanted to share? Was there anything that you came into this thinking I'd love to share this with the audience.

Guest 29:54

Just given the timing of this yarn, I do want to flag that national reconciliation Week is coming up from the 27 Of May to the third of June, and this year's theme is really important. It's a wonderful continuation of last year's theme, which was now more than ever. The theme for this year is bridging now to next, and it's this visualization of how the past the present and the future continues to shape our reconciliation journey. So we'd love to encourage you, Marie and your listeners, and to visit reconciliation Australia's website to find out what events are taking place between the 27th of May, the third of June, in the locations that you're based in, and to participate in these activities. Reconciliation is everyone's business all year round, but this week in particular provides a really great opportunity for businesses, organizations and individuals to be part of the important conversations surrounding reconciliation and to identify how you can help us bridge now to

Marie 30:51

next amazing, great reminder, I might even have a little mini event of my own.

Guest 30:56

Please do and invite me along too.

Marie 31:00

Will they be, mate? I've got a feeling there's always Why else do we do these things?

Marie 31:08

And you're welcome to bring your kids too.

Guest 31:10

Oh, thank you. They're still at a cute age. Is that offer to babysit anytime?

Marie 31:16

I would love to babysit. Mine are all grown up now, so I get eye rolls and demands, and you know that kind of business. So cuddles with newborns. I'm here for it. Great. Thanks. I'll leave you to get back to your family. Thank you so much for joining. Thank you.

Guest 31:30

I've got a sopranos marathon that I'm committed to commence and and finish by the end of my five weeks.

Marie 31:37

You know what is really funny about you mentioning that when I was pregnant with my second child, I binged Sopranos. Yeah, it's so great, isn't it? It's so violent and so scary. And I don't mean to scare you at all, but my second child is a gangster. Oh, true. She came out. It's as if I channeled the sopranos into this child. So she's got thug life going on. I love it.

Marie 32:04

All right. I'll leave you to it. Thanks again. 

Guest 32:06

Well, Marie, you're soon bye.